Ya Haqq!

We are not Internet Muslims we take our direction from guides connected to the Prophet (S) in training and lineage. However, even Sunnipath, who take a position in general against music say:

As such, religious caution and following sounder legal opinion (and the outward purport of the prohibitions of the Qur’an and Sunna) would indicate scrupulously avoiding music and singing with instruments besides the duff. However, one should not condemn others about this because of the difference of opinion regarding this.

Anyway, I dont suggest any further debate on this matter, we are forbidden to argue in matters of religion. Best to go our seperate ways.

I just brought up music because I noticed it on these sites, let me ask, I noticed u guys use sunnipath, right? Well, that site itself, declares music as Haraam. So even if it really does come down to ‘my ulema’ or ‘your ulema’, wouldn’t it still become doubtful to you. And I’m not selectively using hadith for my own agenda, I’m saying that if such a severe reprimanding is given, placing musical instruments on the same level as zinaa and khamr in an authentic hadith, how could anyone dare still listen? And also, you are right, it is a very wrong way of thinking people have of doing things without knowledge, which should definitely be obtained from the ulema, but why follow a specific set of scholars and ignore the others?

It is interesting that you choose to focus/argue only on differences and worry about music, but do not answer when questions are posed to you about deeper matters. I specifically asked you how you can think you are on the “Straight Path” if you have no one to guide you upon it and are defining it entirely based on your understanding. Unless you yourself are a scholar, you do not have the knowledge to make decisions about all aspects without going to another who is more learned. And even scholars have teachers and shaykhs above them that they go to for advice and clarification. It is necessary to have a living guide who is able to exemplify the practice we wish to acquire.

Selectively quoting hadith that serve your own agenda but differ from other hadiths on the matter does not really bolster your case. Perhaps for you music is a doubtful matter best avoided, alhamdulAllah, but that does not make it doubtful for everyone.

they are not just “my ulema”, and I am well aware of the difference of opinion. With such a difference of opinion, wouldn’t this be left as a doubtful matter to be avoided? Not to mention, a hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari that says this:

Narrated Abu ‘Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash’ari: that he heard the Prophet saying, “From among my followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments, as lawful. And there will be some people who will stay near the side of a mountain and in the evening their shepherd will come to them with their sheep and ask them for something, but they will say to him, ‘Return to us tomorrow.’ Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the mountain fall on them, and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection.”

I’m confused Zaazaan… you post nasheeds on your blog. That is music also. You cannot have it both ways.

Your quote about following the Straight Path and not seeking new paths is in essence correct. But how do you know what that Straight Path is if you do not have a teacher who comes from a long line back to the Prophet (salalahi alahi wa salaam) in explaining that path for your level of understanding?

And what do you suspect Zaazaan?

as-salaamu ‘alaikum Zaazaan. Good you are showing what you stand for, I too stand for following the sunnat of the Holy Prophet Sayyidina Maulana Muhammad (alayhi salatu wa salam).

So now that we agree there, what would you like to discuss about sunnah and bidah. I see your link and your quote, but what should I gather from these two or am I supposed figure it out on my own?

I stand for following the path of Rasulullah (Sallallahu ‘Alaihe Wa Sallam) and his companions. It is a very sad state we are in where we ask Whose Islam? Speaking of that there is quite a relevant article on this by Khalid Baig, might wanna check it out:

http://albalagh.net/food_for_thought/whose_Islam.shtml

Since, we are talking about Haqq and Baatil, it would be relevant to discuss sunnah and bidah, here is another article by the same author:

http://albalagh.net/general/bidah.shtml

“The Straight Path has been laid out. Our job is only to follow it, not to try to discover new paths.”

as-salaamu ‘alaikum Zaazaan. You wrote,

“Haqq and Baatil can not unite, I’m not declaring anybody on one side or the other.”

Although perhaps you should? Indeed Haqq and Batil are opposite poles. Maybe it might prove more fruitful to declare what you understand to be Haqq-way. Then your comment would mean more than merely a number some text and a date. If you clarified your position perhaps comment #30 may stand for something, who knows it may stand for Haqq! And then again what you understand may be Batil, wa Allahu a’alam… but I’m not declaring you are on one side or the other.

Yursil accurately described Muslims who use canned, generalized and cliche positions saying,

“They are the ones living on the sidelines, looking in.”

I was once like this so I understand the apprehension of taking a stand, but like Malcolm X said,

“If a man doesn’t stand for something, he will fall for anything.”

At the same time, how can one unify under the banner of Islam when the other party considers you a deviant Muslim? What is this unity based upon?

I’m uncertain as to your point. The entire basis of my post is to discuss the failings of the “Sunni unity pledge” and to get to the honesty required for it to be real.

On the other hand, it is clear that people can unite over any basic cause. Deviancy only implies some aspect of faith is mistaken. Does that mean you cannot sit with sincere people unless their faith is perfect?

Unifying under a banner of each individuals understanding of Islam is an unnecessary cause of division. We manage to unify with even non-Muslims in our real lives over other things, whether it be a basic a thing as being citizens of a township, employees, or as human beings.

Are you truly going to have the feeling of unity in your heart with someone, who although may not attack you constantly, still believes or thinks that you’re not following “traditional Islam” or that you are a deviant? I don’t think so.

A feel-good feeling of unity is not the goal here, the goal of the ‘pledge’ was to stop attacks.

We all know that unity doesn’t equal uniformity. At the same time, how can one unify under the banner of Islam when the other party considers you a deviant Muslim? What is this unity based upon?

Are you truly going to have the feeling of unity in your heart with someone, who although may not attack you constantly, still believes or thinks that you’re not following “traditional Islam” or that you are a deviant? I don’t think so.

I do not consider tolerating someone by not flinging criticisms to be unity.

I’m sorry that you found my previous comment as unfortunate.

It’s unfortunate that a casual reading by someone in an authoritative position in
‘Islamic’ politics leads to this type of comment.

The question is not whether other groups are deviant or not, but rather, can we continue our primary work without involving negativity of attacks?

You asked

And you mention that Shaykh Nazim has never said anything negative about Salafis. Has he not mentioned the term “Wahabis,” which is a synonym?

As I stated:

Shaykh Maulana Nazim al-Hakkani has never even mentioned the name of a Salafi in any of his talks

Yes, he may have generally mentioned Wahabi’s or even Salafi’s (on rare occasion) as belief systems or ideologies, however the reality is he has never attacked an individual. The Wahabi and Salafi propaganda machine however, is based on attacks on individuals.

Unity exists with people of sincerity, on matters of commonality. And sometimes unity is expressed by simply allowing other communities to exist without need of constant criticism being flung over-the-wall.

How about uniting with the Ja’fari Shi’is or the Dawoodi Bohras? Doesn’t the leadership of the tariqah consider them deviants too?

There is a level of nifaq in this posting.

In fact, racism among Muslims in the US is probably an even bigger issue than this.

The reality is that a majority of Muslims have a degree of asabiyyah and are sanctimonious when it comes to their “jama’ah.” Let’s be honest, so that we really can discuss unity or if it’s even possible.

you all obviously have no fear that you are saying anything wrong – god is on your side- and no fitnah at all comes from these arguments that bigger,better people than you haven’t managed to resolve.

i am so done with muslim sites. you come by looking for inspiration and all you find is this.

I’m not really interested in debating the finer points of my post with you, the fundamental message is not one of hatred, but of unity.

Either they are worse than non-Muslims, or they do not have sincere hearts, neither of which, i hope, you have the audacity to pass judgment on.

Those are your judgments to make. There is not a scale that Muslims have to be higher than Non-Muslims in character in sincerity, rather we can only witness each others actions and the reality is it boils down to the same old things… Traditional Muslims just want to be left in peace following their ways and their understanding of the Shariat and Salafi’s just want to make it known how right they are in stopping it and enforcing their understanding of the Shariat.

The rest of your comment is therefore not really relevant, as much of it is based on the idea that Salafi’s don’t ever say anything against Sufi’s, and this is just not the truth (as proven in the post and with your comments).

Uniting with people who are yelling Bidaa! Shirk! Kufr! in your face is just not going to happen. This was a message for traditional minded people, so please let’s leave it at that.

-Yursil

You will not find, for example, on muslimmatters [I bring it up only because you brought it up first] any diatribes like this directed against sufis.

On the contrary:

http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/10/the-ruins-of-traditional-islam/
Quote from the site: –And without the casuistry of scholars to claim otherwise, I can only think to describe this as grave worship, as blatant shirk.–

Nothing more needs to be said about your post. It calls for us to basically ‘purify’ our deen as it is understood according to your ways, this is why unity cannot occur while accusations of shirk are being thrown around.

but rather when the sufis step back and objectively evaluate the shari’ legitimacy of those acts.

No need to step back, as those acts were and are sanctioned in centuries of Shariat legitmacy. So we have our Shari’ position. If Salafi’s want to unite they will have to learn to accept that fact.

Khadija, this is the link to what the Salafi’s are saying:
http://muslimmatters.org/2007/08/29/unity-based-on-renewal-guidance

you say “real Sufi’s have had no problem uniting with anyone” and “we are very open and frank and enjoy the company of non-Muslims who have sincere hearts.”

But your vitriol directed to salafis gives a different message. Either they are worse than non-Muslims, or they do not have sincere hearts, neither of which, i hope, you have the audacity to pass judgment on.

This post is also a contradiction to the way of your teachers (despite some falsity in this claim) – as you mention –
”
Certainly there is no such extreme hostility coming from teachers of Tassawuf. Shaykh Maulana Nazim al-Hakkani has never even mentioned the name of a Salafi in any of his talks. And in general, tariqat people are much more involved and concerned with working on themselves to have that much time complaining about individuals and organizations.”

This post in and of itself disproves this claim. Really, it just looks like another hate-filled attack directed towards those with whom you disagree. You will not find, for example, on muslimmatters [I bring it up only because you brought it up first] any diatribes like this directed against sufis.

You further prove this point by saying,
“Sh Hamza Yusuf lovers, sufi sympathizers, simple fans of Sh Yasir Qadhi or Imam Suhaib Webb are not the problem here, all of these fan groups know too little about the details of their faith to really create any tangible disunity.”

Here again you pass judgment on entire masses of people. You not only belittle their knowledge without any basis, but give passing insults which run quite contrary to this spiritual tariqat persona of having no problem with uniting with anyone that you attempt to give here.

You then say,
“As some might remember, not so long ago, a small defense of the Hadra created an eruption that everyone who was paying attention could feel the heat from. Accusations of Bida’, Shirk and Kufr are what the Salafi’s always resort to, and Yahya Birt is right, until they can get over that, there will be no real unity.”

and

“And it has nothing to do with hostility on this Sufi’s part.”

No outright hostility maybe, but you must admit there is some insistence to force these issues down people’s throats. No one discusses issues of hadra, etc. until “tariqat sufis” insist on partaking in them and discussing them with others. the unity will not happen when those accusations stop (i admit that is part of the problem) but rather when the sufis step back and objectively evaluate the shari’ legitimacy of those acts.