Yursil, we see eye-to-eye on many points you’ve made, alhamdulillah – particularly on the need to ‘tread water,’ as you described.

I think the root of the problem, then, is the love of wealth & prestige. To the extent that education is utlilized as one’s ticket to the ‘yuppie good-life,’ to that extent it is abused.

I want to re-emphasize that I do not advocate the path of scholarly pursuit, or even basic college education, as a desirable aim for all people, whether poor, middle class or rich. A truck driver with taqwa is more dear to the Almighty, than a faqih with hawa’.

Those who are ‘stewards’ of any extra blessings Allah has bestowed on them, if anything, have greater accountability to live up to them.

Selam Aleykum Yursil,

Just checking in – I was going to respond to a few points of Abu Dharr’s, but Mash’Allah, couldn’t have said it better, you got it all.

The Saint vs. Scholar series is an excellent way to bring those who rely enthusiastically on ‘official’ scholarship as the backbone and organization of Islam up to speed with ‘real’ knowledge and book/university knowledge. The latter without faith is empty and defunct, but even with it, – secular or madhab-i, it cannot hold a candle to the oceans of a Vali’ullah.

I think here it comes back to balance and balance is not always 50/50. Duniya and Akhirat can never be two halves of a whole.

I remember Sheykh Effendi speaking about the justice of men and the Justice of Allah. Man, if asked to deal justly with 5 persons in a room, with a 100 dollars, he would give each man 20. To be ‘fair’.

Allah, however, with those same persons, may give 2 of them 50 dollars each, and the rest of the three nothing, and that would be his Ultimate Justice. How will so many of us understand this? How many can submit to that justice with conviction, knowing nothing else could be the Truth, and this alone, sweeping aside our pre-conceptions of simple arithmetic or our own frail sense of ethics, pangs of compassion for the empty-handed bursting here and there.

Who will say, ‘I know nothing’, and say, ‘I must only hear and obey’? I ask myself that question and I don’t know the answer. I’m grateful to Allah that he has kept me with my Sheykh, and that I don’t have to carry the weight of that burden alone. Otherwise, I would surely be crushed under it.

Selam Aleykum,

- Hyder

Indeed, our parents immigration allowed us to learn quite a bit, and opened up many worldly doors for us. And indeed, education has become a currency, we lucked out on this matter. This is why I said:

Yes, we need education in this society to survive. The world demands it, as it is not being run by people with faith. But while we participate in this system, we can also keep alive in our hearts the reality and the goal of a simple life. Looking to spread the confusion within the very sciences of Islam is not the answer

So what I am speaking to is balancing the understanding of education as:

1) A means for “treading the water” the world has built today. While we were lucky to be born to families of some education, others have not. Looking to take that education to merely turn it into more wealth is a disease that has affected most of mankind. We need to ‘tread water’, I think in this matter, which means learn as much as what fits of role and responsibility, and help ourselves and others with that knowledge. Make it knowledge that benefits us in this life and the hereafter.

2) In our hearts respecting the understanding that every person has their role and responsibility with respect to education. Looking to see what is possible in improving quality of life without the prerequirement of education in the ‘third world’.

3) Giving utmost importance to keeping the same type of ‘educational caste system’ outside of our religion in matters of faith. Mixing up spiritual knowledge with that of fiqh, aqeedah, etc is a fundamental mistake. It is much better to recognize spiritual knowledge, where the wealthy academic learns to respect the secrets of the shephard.

Where I saw the relationship between poverty and lack of education was where you said:

In earlier times, Jews, Christians and others would flock to the universities in Cordoba, Baghdad, Samarqand and elsewhere because they were the eminent centers of learning. Times have changed since then, and now the flipside is reality – Muslims, and other post-colonials, flocking to London, Paris, New York, Berlin, in search of prosperity.

If Rasulullah – Allah bless & grant him peace – taught us to pray for true wealth, and to seek refuge in Allah from poverty – there’s our guidance

Even if we put aside even the deeper understanding of this hadith, to seek refuge in Allah from worldly poverty, does not entail automatically seeking out the university. So we need to pray for that refuge from poverty, in whatever means that refuge happens to arrive at our doorstep. If it means life as a successful farmer, MashaAllah that is good. If it means life as a medical doctor, MashaAllah that is good.

There is a difference when speaking about individuals with roles and responsibilities in having the few learn what is necessary and beneficial for them (as the hadith states), and applying one specific role (the academic) to all of humanity. As I have represented, some people need to carry that burden, and they need to do it with spiritual insight.

If Muslims with access to knowledge of medicine simply use their newfound knowledge for the hoarding of wealth (which is what we see as a general rule), then the knowledge has not benefited anyone.

And yes, I do believe the knowledge mentioned by the Prophet (Salallahu’laiheewassalam) was generally of that of the spiritual realm. Specifically of those hadith which mention the superiority in religion of those who possess “ilm”:

“People are of different substances in good and in evil, the best of them in the Jahiliyah are the best in Islam, if they gain knowledge.” – Muslim, Nawawi

Hudhaifah Ibn al-Yaman (RA) narrated, the Messenger of Allah (SAAW) said:
The excess of ‘Ilm is better than the excess of ‘Ibadah (worship), and the best of your religion is the wara’ (piety, self restrain).” (At-Tabarani, Al-Awsat; Al-Bazzar)

Abu Hurairah narrated, the Messenger of Allah (SAAW) said:
“The most honest men of future generations will carry this ‘Ilm, they will purify it from the falsification of the extremists, and the assumptions of the liars, and the misinterpretation of the fools.” (Al-Khatib Al-Baghdadi, Sharaf As/hab Al-Hadith; At-Tabrizi, Mishkat Al-Masabih)

That is the near mandatory knowledge, the primary focus of his blessed message. It was certainly not knowledge which had a prerequirement of literacy.

I don’t believe that education is a panacea for the world. Often that’s parroted as a mindless slogan by people who could care less for the underprivileged.

But I do hold the view, that secular education has opened up doors for many in our world. That’s just an undeniable reality of contemporary life.

Had it not been for our parents’ immigration, I doubt any of us would be enjoying the ease with blogging, the access and ability to grasp secular and Islamic scholarship (however limited), the ni’ama of living in an area free from absolute dictatorship and overt religious persecution, a general understanding of the world, and a perception that there is more beyond our personal and cultural domains.

Rasulullah – Allah bless & grant him peace – did ennoble former slaves with high positions. That itself is evidence that they were in need of upliftment in THIS life. A slave, or relative poverty, is not a position that we desire in a fit of romanticized piety, and I feel this is why we were taught to seek refuge in Allah from such a state.

To seek refuge in Allah from poverty, does not entail despising those who are impoverished, either. I don’t think I made a synonymous relationship with poverty and lack of education. Nor do I hold such a view.

As for the meaning of ilm and what Rasulullah – Allah bless & grant him peace – meant by it, the scholars have had differing opinions on what it comprises. I think you’re mistaken in saying that what was meant was spiritual knowledge (and by implication, only that).

Imam Shafi’i (rh) is reported to have said:

“al-’ilmu ilmaan: ilmu t-tibbi lil-abdaan, wa’ilmu l-fiqhi lil-adyaan”
(meaning: there are two kinds of knowledge; medicine, for the body and fiqh, for religion) as if the other branches of knowledge are secondary while these two are paramount.

Imam shafi’i also used to express his regret that muslims did not go into medicine, and that they left it to the jews and christians.

So I think it’s critical to not limit knowledge merely to the spiritual domain, and in doing so, to attack education per se, because it’s used as yet another tool of distraction and criterion to esteem our fellow man.

As for backwardness, Hyder – I didn’t intend to equate the rural with ‘backward’. Backwardness to me, is someone who does not make use of what Allah has bestowed on him in this life, to improve it and the next.

“New doors & new horizons were opened up for Muslims whose forefathers ventured out from the backwardness of their rural dwellings, to immigrate to countries that enjoy greater prosperity.”

If you look at rurality as backward, then the ‘cure’ or being ‘forward’ is what exactly? Money? Financial Success?

Jahiliyya – real backwardness – was a state where the practices and the customs of the people was deplorable,- (not their innate dwellings) – the antidote being Islam, which Prophet (ASWS) brought.

The reality and the message of the hadith, ‘Seek knowledge, even in China” – has never been more crucial than in these times.

No not at all, I was very happy to see your comment! Sorry again!!

I will respond to this point:

While educational credentials have taken on a caste system dynamic, to suggest that it ultimately has only a meager value, is to overlook the blessings that’ve come about from it – for Muslims and nonMuslims alike.

I’m not sure who suggested that. The reality is what is being suggested as a worldview from both the West and Eastern academics (secular or not) seems to be complete, ubiquitious education for all people as a means for them to escape poverty and somehow meet ‘challenges’ that I have to see an example of.

When education becomes currency, we have a problem. Where the learning disabled are cast to professions that offer no honor, respect, that is a problem also. Islam honored the slave. When we now are considering various means of selective reproduction and genetic engineering to increase IQ’s we have a problem. A side thing has become the goal.

It was the Prophet (Salallahu’alaiheewassalam) that sent uneducated former slaves to Kings, while Abu Jahl (representing high class aristrocacy within the Makkan system) looked down upon them all (including our noble Messenger -Salallahu’alaiheewassalam). And frankly, no one really has a response to the hadiths that mention the illiteracy of the nation, and specifically the power of the illiteracy of the Prophet (S).

To change my point into one of suggesting its meagerness is a bad misunderstanding, as I never really belittled it, rather I have emphasized that education has a ROLE and a responsibility for those who are ready for it. There is a time, place and person for every profession, for every purpose. Indeed education needs to be viewed, as it once did, as a burden and responsibility from which Imam Abu Hanifa (R), for example, rose to meet. He had the education, he distributed it properly, but he never made it equal WEALTH.

Not being considered a complete requirement for our salvation, spiritual and worldly (which seems to be the dominant world view) is very much a different story than considering it meager.

If you notice in what you wrote we find an almost synonymous relationship between poverty and lack of education. In the hadith you mention the Prophet (Sallalahu’alaiheewassalam) meant the former you seem to take it to mean the latter. I seperated out education into that which requires literacy and that which does not, there was a reason for that. Using the broad term confuses us as the Prophet (Sallalahu’alaiheewassalam) spoke of Ilm, which at that time was spiritual knowledge.

Since we are speaking of abstracts, of really unreachable goals such as mass education as the answer of the worlds problems, I would suggest that we really should be discussing what it will take for education to cease being a currency. I reject education as the necessary currency of a good, Islamic, happy and content life. I don’t think it is mass education which will equal prosperity for Muslims.. not at all.

It can help certain ones become high saints and Very Important People Who Should Be Remembered, but what it has become today is the new tool for discrimination of souls. And we have perfect examples on certain blogs today who attack traditionalism.

Thanks for the note brother Yursil, I was so afraid I had peeved you!

Imam Shafi`i’s is related to have said:
“Knowledge is what benefits. Knowledge is not what one has memorized.”

I think Abdul Sattar does make valid points. While educational credentials have taken on a caste system dynamic, to suggest that it ultimately has only a meager value, is to overlook the blessings that’ve come about from it – for Muslims and nonMuslims alike.

It’s true that much of our educational focus is on the secular – but I feel that’s more the byproduct of civilizational and geopolitical realities. If history is written by the victors, so too are the textbooks by the latter day educators.

Western civilization, especially after the Enlightenment, moved away from the religious sphere – and this is why education in turn, has emphasized the material and the empirical, and left any relation to the Divine, in the hands of theologians who ceased to have any relevance.

Our collective traditional legacy as Muslims, in centuries past, contributed much to the pursuit of knowledge. Not only did we have the presence of awliya; sometimes they were themselves polymaths, or through the grace of Allah, harbringers of those who contributed to both the dunya and the deen.

The question we should ask ourselves is, whether Muslims are STILL contributing. Our contemporary state, provides much evidence to the contrary.

The divide between the countryside, and the city life has always existed in different cultures. Both sides have a tendency to glorify themselves, and condescend upon the other. But since we’re talking about the role of education and ego, I think it would be a step backward, to over-romanticize the village folk.

New doors & new horizons were opened up for Muslims whose forefathers ventured out from the backwardness of their rural dwellings, to immigrate to countries that enjoy greater prosperity. It’s not sinful to want for better opportunities for one’s family. Why shouldn’t Muslims demand more from themselves – and yearn to set an example through accomplishment?

In earlier times, Jews, Christians and others would flock to the universities in Cordoba, Baghdad, Samarqand and elsewhere because they were the eminent centers of learning. Times have changed since then, and now the flipside is reality – Muslims, and other post-colonials, flocking to London, Paris, New York, Berlin, in search of prosperity.

If Rasulullah – Allah bless & grant him peace – taught us to pray for true wealth, and to seek refuge in Allah from poverty – there’s our guidance.

Sure, there’s been cultural and religious dilution (and dissolution) for many that sought the dunya, but Allah rewards those with what they intend.

A tendency of a defeated people, is to have excessive nostalgia over a former glory, to be over defensive, and fail to meet challenges that come their way. Our respect for our traditional legacy should inspire us to go forth, not have our heads in the sand.

So while I agree with the general thrust of sidi Yursil’s warning against the ego-poison that education can be, I think we have to realize that Allah has, in His wisdom, put us all in our individual situations.

Allah guide us all, to that which benefits us.

Selam Aleykum,

Mash’Allah again, Yursil. I, for one, don’t find this piece arguementative in the least, but a clear and universal rebuttal of the general rhetoric of secular and modern/moderate minded muslims. Practice is important. Knowing the verse in the Qur’an which tells us our purpose, and making it compulsory for EVERY Adult Muslim is placing a large burden on a neck which is already dealing with the burden of mass literacy and the onus of books&books of knowledge without the implementation or application. The Age of the Second Jahiliyyah personified, literacy for all and real knowledge for none(as real knowledge is practiced and experienced). Practicing the spirit of those verses without knowing the exact verse, but because you were taught and you submitted, is not only, dare I say it, more ‘practical’ but a huge relief.

This is exactly what those adorning the mantle of ‘Sheykh’ have been trained to do, and have been doing so since they inherited the role of representing the Prophet(Alahi Salaatu-was’Salaam).

Hard on themselves and easy on others. Of course, there are those who the Sheykhs recognize potential in, and the real training of the ego begins, once that trainee/mureed/dervish has submit himself to his Sheykh, in the spirit of the Sahaba ekram submitting to the most Beloved One in Divine Presence. Yes, that road is not easy. But help is reaching the sincere, always. Here Allah lightens the load of that burden, because you’ve made sincere intention to work on yourself for His sake, and are making steps in His direction according to the sunnah, advice and the instruction of the Holy Prophet(ASWS).

In perfect example our Sheykh Effendi is speaking of Ayub (AS) and the trials of sickness and poverty which he endured for Allah’s sake. But the burden of that debilitating disease(which Allah gave him) was lessened with patience(which Allah also gave him), as he was ever at the door of thankfulness.

One day, among all the days, when there were maggots busy with eating his flesh, and his body was crumbling, one fell to the ground. Ayub(AS) picked it up and put it back on his flesh, saying, “Allah has commanded you to eat my flesh”. But when he did this, the maggot bit hard, and a pain so severe, which he had never felt throughout the ENTIRE ordeal, swept his body. Ayub(AS) cried out, and remembered Allah, and heard a voice – saying, ‘Ya, Ayub, why do you burden yourself more when We have lessened it for you’. He was not feeling the pain before, because he was submitting to His Lord, and Allah was giving Mercy and Patience with it, but in the latter instance – When Allah’s Mercy caused the worm to drop, and Ayub(AS) replaced it – he was increasing his own burden, and THAT was the cause of the following agony.

This brings us back to the point of the very nature of human beings, of man collectively – which our Sheykh is speaking about – that of a weak creature. Physically, Mentally, and Spiritually weak, unless we submit ourselves to the advice of the Mercy for all Creation, to reach those areas and gatherings of Saliheen and to seek out the Ahle-Zikr when you want to know something, or desire betterment for yourself. There we find support for our weak selves. Strength, and protection and support, from the forces of our environment and the very nature of duniya and it’s patron(Sheytan), as well as those created foils inside us – the ego and our desires – which are all designed to fool us.

So, Alhamdulillah for those ones who are there to protect us, the Sheykhs. Just as you would call one a fool, for braving the harsh winter without a warm coat or blanket, saying “I must be strong enough, I am this, I am that!” – No, you’re not, you’re a pink and naked thing without protection, and will succumb to those forces which are not in your control. We all are. To protect ourselves, and to aknowledge our weakness, is to begin to know ourselves. That protection is to take a guide, a Sheykh, and to say you know better than me in the Way of all ways, and this is why I accept you. And only then can we, custodian and Sultan, begin to know our Lord. For the naysayers who would call this cheap talk, I can only point out that to the contrary, I have witnessed with my own weak eyes, success in Allah’s way as a reality of life in the manner of Islam, and do so on a weekly basis. Alhamdulillah and Shukr Alhamdulillah. May Allah bless Sheykh Mevlana and our Sheykh Effendi, and keep us in their sohbet and their company always. Ameen. For the sake of the Most Beloved One in Divine Presence, Alahi Salaatu was’Salaam.

Selam Aleykum,

Hyder

No akhi, nothing was taken personally. Its all good inshAllah. I just didn’t want to drag out what is a clear difference of opinion and sometimes differing contexts into those arguments that are really long point-counterpoints, thats why I mentioned that.

Alhamdulillah its all good.

wa salaam
AS

This criticism although quoting you is actually answering a question posed by others, including the notable Umm Zaid.

As far as the rest, I think you took my response a bit personally, and I’m sorry for that.

Regarding the engagement of scholars, those that do so are indeed to be commended. As I mention in the post, this post is about responding to the idea of ubiquitous literacy, reading and writing as the answer to the ills of the Muslim Ummah (an idea not expressed by you or by me, but by another). As far as knowing the verse, I think its far more important to benefit from the meaning in that verse, and through that find actual application of it. There are already far too many hafiz’s who are ready to sneak out of their parents vicegrip so they can gamble and drink their hearts away.

So this series of posts was addressing the attitude by a certain individual, and responding to those assertions.

If along the way, I digress and point out other issues, that is just how I write and think. I find one point a good way to introduce others which are necessary foundations for discussion.

Aaminah, I think I deleted your comment by accident when I was checking it through my cell phone. The thought was very much appreciated though!

I don’t think anyone is recommending a mandatory education in the deep studies of Shari’ah, nor of mandatory advanced secular education for all peoples.

I think in an effort to staunchly and unflinchingly defend your personal view of what traditionalism is – we’ve gotten to the point that we aren’t even talking about the issue. Part of our tradition is to utilize the secular, the spiritual, and the doctrinal to safeguard the Deen, the Lives of People, their Minds, Their Honor/Families, and their Wealth – the Maqaasid ash-Shari’ah. No matter – we are on different sides of the issue with regards to the actualization of spirituality – this is fine. At least we can agree that Jannah is our goal and Allah (swt) pleasure is our purpose, and the Sunnah is our way.

I still do not think my goal of having every adult Muslim know which verse of the Quran tells him his/her purpose of creation is too much to ask. I think it is a SHAME on our part – not theirs – OURS, if we cannot all do this. Of course, this goal is not by itself, it means we have reached a level as a people where we can ask/answer that question and are literate ENOUGH to know AT LEAST that.

I think you have taken offense to an insult which was never made against the uneducated Muslims of villages. Your point is well taken that many from our Ummah have gone through this Dunya with little more than solid belief in the basics, and closeness to their Creator. But I feel that this overlooks what has happened with everything that HAS gone WRONG in the Ummah because of our own negligence. From extremism, to secularism, to liberalism – there are monsters. Yes, they were there before, and yes, they were crushed before, but that doesn’t mean we should sit back and not engage them actively.

These monsters were crushed because our scholars and their students actively studied, examined, and then refuted the false beliefs by engaging them. They ENGAGED falsehood with Truth. Not by sitting back and limiting their work to a few preconceived ideas. This is why I find your arguments to be imbalanced and lacking in the other side of the story.

I would write more formally and rhetorically, but I don’t see too much benefit in arguing on this because we are on different sides of the issue and I have a feeling we will remain that way – but thats ok.

inshAllah Allah (swt) will reward us all for anything we do sincerely for His sake.

your brother,
Abdul Sattar