Seeker asked me in the comments to: The reflecting on 9/11 post, what I remember in regards to the Madison Square Garden event.
Shaykh Hamza Yusuf as I recall was on before Bilal Philips, but it’s been a few years. If he was on after he did not address Philips at all and stuck to his speech. Few paid attention to the Bilal Philips speech, it was over the phone and pumped into the room only over the speaker system.
When he began naming names and openly saying he had issues with the Reliance the crowd tuned out even more. It actually became hard to hear Philips over the crowds murmerings (not necessarily against Philips, but the usual children and friendly talk that occurs during certain Muslim events).
The moderator and Imam Zaid Shakir both spoke out ‘generally’ against takfir and disunity after the Philips speech. Imam Zaid did name Philips (with respect) and said he disagreed with him over the Reliance. I don’t recall Shaykh Hamza mentioning these issues at all (and I would have remembered), which is also why I think he went on before Bilal Philips.
I recall looking at Shaykh Hamza’s face during the Philips speech as I was highly interested to see his reaction but he was staring straight down.
Anyone else that was there can feel free to add their version to the comments.
May 15th, 2004 - 3:59 pm
Salaam ‘Alaikum
Sh. Hamza was on after Bilal Phillips. He was the last speaker of the night. Abdullah ‘Ali spoke just after BP, doing his fundraising thing, and he said some generalized comment. So did Imam Z, who spoke after that.
Sh. H himself made a generalized comment about adab, saying that people need to be careful of what they say about the scholars of Islam, b/c he / she could be making sajda at the moment you are backbiting them and “the flesh of the scholars is poison.”
BP’s comments got a rise b/c he made a personal jab at the wife of the sheikh he was mentioning by name. I was sitting in the front row… Sh. H was looking down but his face colored.
There were people who approached the shayukh backstage and apologized on behalf of BP (as though they were responsible for what he said). (There were other things that they apologized for as well, such as a certain group of people from N. NJ buying up a huge block of tickets and then not showing up in a bid to “prevent” Muslims from hearing Sh. H– which didn’t work b/c the crowd was past capacity even when they let people into fill those seats, and they had to take a TV outside of the theatre for those who couldn’t get in).
But in general, BP’s speech, which as you said, was over the phone, was barely audible, since the phone kept cutting out, static, low volume, etc.
May 15th, 2004 - 5:13 pm
Walaikum-salaam,
Thanks UmmZaid. I remember now Shaykh Hamza after Bilal Philips, I remember some comment made by someone about making sure we all stayed.
That’s quite an accurate account.. I definately did not hear the comment about the wife, I was too far back I suppose.
So many years ago
-Yursil
May 15th, 2004 - 6:26 pm
Being in the UK (and possibly, at that time, not even Muslim) I wasn’t at the MSG event, but it is typical of how Bilal Phillips and other Wahhabis talk about people they really should not be passing comment on. I read in his “Evolution of Fiqh” book a reference to Abdullah b. al-Zubair, radhi Allahu ‘anhu, in the same breath (so to speak) as the various schismatic movements which existed then. I read my (then) wife’s copy of that book and ripped it up when I got to that point.
May 16th, 2004 - 10:18 pm
Wow, I never heard of this incident but it sounds… subHaan Allah. Yusuf, my dh’s opinion of that book is the same as yours for the same reason. He says it deserves to be burned for mentioning the four madhhahib mixed in with the others like that.
May 17th, 2004 - 7:55 am
Ah… Burning books. Always a good solution :O
May 17th, 2004 - 8:06 am
I wouldn’t think you would be so keen to keep the terrorists philisophical handbook stocked in libraries around the world would you ATA?
I’m not too keen on burning books, but I definately believe certain books need to be maintained (if for historical purposes) and communicated by those who can put them in context of a greater argument.
The Muslim population in NJ/NY is given free or nearly free Qutb’ist literature..
May 17th, 2004 - 9:30 am
Actually I would. It is definition of the evil you face. While I understand the sentiment of “hating” a book, and describing that hatred through an expression of wanting to burn the book.
I do disagree with just trying to bury or hide the evil book or literature. Hiding from evil or fear is not the answer. Understanding it is key to the defeat of it.
I think we see eye to eye on this, sorry if my one liner sarcasm didn’t really explain my point. I will be more explicit in the future. I just can’t help myslef, always looking for that witty one-liner.
May 17th, 2004 - 12:42 pm
Assalamoalaykum,
Othman RadhiAllahoanh burned copies of the Qur’an to avoid any confusions about any differences.
Now, an “evil” book, is dangerous. Burning it is better than preserving. Because you never know when somebody in the future reads it for historical education and actually gets inspired and writes another “evil” book. - and it spurs a chain reaction.
May 17th, 2004 - 1:39 pm
So then didn’t Othman RadhiAllahoanh essentially think the Qur’an was evil or wrong enough to burn?
Yet you know the Qur’an to not be evil. I guess we just have to agree to disagree.
I like having everything out in the open and allow the truth to be self evident. I would rather have the evil out in the open to point to and explain it’s shortcomings. To hide it only allows it to exist and grow in obscurity.
There will always be ones who look to the wrong source, regardless of whether there is a book to encourage it or not.
I guess it is like the chicken and the egg… which comes first. The evil ones who write the books, or the books that encourage people to be evil?
May 17th, 2004 - 2:00 pm
I think we may be getting a bit off topic, and not understanding one another here. I’ll close this up for now.
May 17th, 2004 - 2:13 pm
Sorry
Not my intention at all! Just trying to learn and share my thoughts. But it is your blog, and I will abide.
Man talk about an ruling with an iron fist :O
May 17th, 2004 - 2:42 pm
I just want to make sure you have proper context, we can take certain discussions offline. Obviously not coming from an Islamic background puts you at a disadvantage.
May 17th, 2004 - 3:21 pm
As salaamu ‘alaykum,
So what was it that Bilal Phillips did wrong? Was it that he criticized a scholar and a book publicly which he should not have done?
If so, why is it alright to criticize him and encourage others to destroy his books?
Is it okay to criticize scholars as long as you think they are Wahhabis?
If the issue is not that it is always wrong to criticize individuals or warn about certain books, but you just think he was wrong about this scholar and this book, then you should make that clear. I’m sure you don’t want to get into the substance of his criticisms here, so that really leaves nothing to discuss.
To be sure, I disagree with his making the comments in that forum and I probably disagree with his comments. (I can’t say for sure since it seems unclear what they were, exactly). I also disagree with many of the comments I hear from ‘traditional’ scholars which do nothing but rip scholars who are more Salafi in outlook. And I think those who would advocate ripping up copies of Bilal Phillips book are being similarly ridiculous and partisan.
Yursil, let me know where I can get my free “Qutbist literature” in the future, since I’ve paid a good amount for what I have right now. I guess I have to move to NY/NJ. Also, you realize that Bilal Phillips is not a fan of Sayyid Qutb, right? What does Qutb have to do with this discussion?
May 17th, 2004 - 6:26 pm
Assalamoalaykum,
Let me just give my 2 cents on this, because it seems as this one topic is causing a lot of chaos.
A long time ago (well not that long ago), I used to sit on the internet to search for the truth. (look at the ignorance, some people go to the qur’an and sunnah, scholars, and I went to the internet, LOL).
I wanted to figure out what the heck all the fuss was about between deobandis, barelwis, salafis, wahhabis, ahle-hadis, ahle-qur’an, sufis, etc, etc, etc.
One thing is guaranteed, if someone wants to be sincerely guided (note sincerely) and he asks Allah for guidance, Allah will guide him. This is the promise of Allah SWT. Nobody can say otherwise.
Now when I mentioned “sincerely”, we have to know what sincerity means (forgive my english, i am an engineering student, just like 90% of my subcontinent brothers). Sincerity, in my opinion, means that if you are presented with a couple of choices, you don’t hold anything against any of the choices, and when somebody tells you the correct choice, you accept it without thinking twice and stick to it and follow it. And when seeking guidance, you have to be sincere again, you have to cry in front of Allah, because this is something you really want. And if you want something from your heart you will cry for it.
After a lot of soul searching, like many others, I cam to follow “traditional” scholars and Hanafi fiqh. But
I have friends that don’t believe in madhabs or commemorating the coming of RasullAllah sallAllahoalayhiwassalam into this world, and I am cool with that. I don’t go around dissing up a scholar because he believes this or does that. This is not my concern and neither do I have any authority to do that. I don’t follow Bilal Phillips views, but in terms of saying anything about his teachings or the ideology he follows, I will leave that to the ‘ulema.
In this difficult time for the muslims, when our brothers and sisters are being tortured, mutilated, raped, and what not, it is important that we look at the similarities amongst each other and come together rather than point out differences. The other juma, the khateeb blasted mawlid and how it was a bidda, and you just have to think to yourself why would anyone do something like that.
If there is a dfference between me and another brother (as long as it is not something that has completely surpassed all known boundaries), why should I use that as a means to create hatred, or some grudges amongst each other.
I recommend going to sunnipath, searching for mawlid, and reading the answer to the question “Why do some Sunni Ulema – like the Deobandis – prohibit the Mawlid?” answered by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari.
One of the things he states is that we shouldn’t look for answers to such questions (he used the word petty). And he was talking about brotherhood and unity and how we should try not to use labels such as deobandi or barelwi. He explains it very nicely and i recommend this reading to all.
I pray that Allah unites us all and guides us all to the right path, muslims and non-muslims alike.
Wassalaam,
Ahmed
P.S. Feel free to e-mail me your thoughts, ahmed_air23@hotmail.com
May 17th, 2004 - 7:29 pm
Ahmed,
Very well said. Thank you for taking the time to write a well thought out comment. I come here to learn, and you have helped. So far my only light into the Muslim world that I trust is Yursil. But I have started to learn more through his blog, both directly in comments here as well as through the information he links to.
To have a comment that cuts through the rhetoric and delivers a meaningful message is refreshing. I know I’m very uneducated in these matters, but please trust that my heart is in the right place and I only seek knowledge.
To have you include me (non-muslim) is a real compliment.
May 18th, 2004 - 7:38 am
as-salamu’alaikum Abu Noor,
Just stop by ICNA and ask for it:
166-26, 89th Avenue
Jamaica, NY 11432
My point, if you read over it again, was that certain literature needs to be distributed to young muslims in a controlled manner, rather than handed out for free. Qutb literature calling for Jihad is an example.
Bilal Philips publically accused Shaykh Keller of Shrik and Bida. And as you see I did not indicate his books should be burned.
-Yursil
May 18th, 2004 - 1:28 pm
Ahmed left a great comment, very proud brother-in-law right here.
May 18th, 2004 - 1:57 pm
Thanks so much for your account, and UmmZaid for an even more detailed account. Didn’t mean to create any controversy over it, but I guess stuff happens.
I was really surprised to hear that BP went as far as saying things about the Shaykh’s wife as well, that’s got to be a new low.
June 2nd, 2004 - 3:02 pm
I think if we burn all these so called hadith, which the Prophet never allowed to be written down anyway will solve all our problems.
The book of Allah is enough. And what is the book of Allah……The Quran!